From An Expat in Malawi to Mannequins in the UK

transcription

Carole
Welcome to Expatability Chat. I've now got my very, very first interview with the lovely Roz Edwards. You'll learn how innovative and basically brave as hell Roz is as we go through this chat. And it's a total Carole winging it chat, along with Sumi the cat, as usual. So let's just see what happens. So welcome to the show, Roz. Lovely to see you.

Roz
Thank you so much for asking me, Carole. Thanks a lot.

Carole
Now, Expatability Chat started in the middle of lockdown, and the first episode I recorded was all about unwanted and unexpected repatriations. And I believe that you have a little insight into this yourself. So would you like to give a little background to your unexpected and unwanted repatriation?

Roz
Yeah, for sure. So I was born in England. The first time I went on a plane was when I was 22. And I flew to Lusaka in Zambia and then into Lilongwe in Malawi. So my partner and I had an African art business, and we've been invited to go out to work with the artists, and by an entrepreneur who was there and to work with the artists and then bring African art basically back to the UK because we had an African art shop in Glastonbury. So basically I went and I came back and forth several times, but overall I was there for 10 years. And we did have a break up as well whilst I was there. I took my youngest son, who was 18 months at the time, with us when I first went. My second son was actually born in Malawi. So then I brought them back to the UK because basically, although we'd split up and I went and I started an internet publishing business and the boys were doing well at school, it was just the right time, basically. There were several things that were holding me back. As a single woman in Africa, it's very, very difficult to get the business.

And although everything was okay, it was just like, Okay, I need to think about the boys now because more than anything. And I just thought the best thing to do is let's go home, let's go back to England. So that's what we did. And that was in 2004. So it's a little while back yet, but it was such a memorable event, really, that we left paradise and ended up in a council estate in Nottinghamshire, which was the biggest shock of my life.

Carole
Yeah, I can imagine. Africa stays in your blood. I think it's quite common knowledge for anybody that's lived there that once that beautiful red dust has touched you, it never actually leaves you. I mean, literally as well, I've actually got shoes in my wardrobe that I've got red dust all over them and it will not come off.

Roz
Yes, and it's not coming off basically. It will never come off.

Carole
That aspect does stay in your heart for a very long time. And moving back when you've got children is actually really tricky. And one of the most searched for phrases on my podcast and my website is moving with teenagers. Is quite scary to me. Now, I moved with a teenager. It's not something that I would recommend.

Roz
Sure.

Carole
Yours were a little younger, but still at a vital point in their English education. English education is strangely more stringent than any other country in the world. And if you don't get them into, for example, a secondary school at the right age, then it does get stuck and it is very difficult and is becoming more so as the government changes the whole education setup.

Roz
Sure.

Carole
You landed back in the UK with your two lovely boys. It was a shock to you, I'm sure, coming from the heat of Africa to no doubt rainy England.

Roz
Luckily, when we landed at Heathrow, the sun was shining, so that was good. That helps. That really helped, yes.

Carole
When we landed in February to the Beast of the East. That was not fun. So were you able to get the kids into school relatively easily? 

Roz
Yeah. Everything was really easy because literally, the first thing that I did was sorted out housing because I didn't obviously have anywhere to live. All I had was the two boys, which was everything, and then four cardboard boxes of things that we brought along with us, memories mainly. But no, everything got sorted out reasonably quickly. We had a house within about two to three weeks, I think, after we'd come back. And literally, we arrived back around September the fourth, and then my eldest went straight into secondary school. Literally.

Carole
Perfect timing.

Roz
Here's a bike. There we go. It's that way.

Carole
That is absolutely fantastic. My daughter wasn't able to go into school for a year.

Roz
Oh.

Carole
I do try and tell people, my clients, please take note, if you're moving to the UK, of the timing of the age, if you can get them into secondary school from the first year, then do it. Any later, it's going to be trouble.

Roz 
That was a major decision, actually, that helped me make that decision of when to go, when to leave. And it was just because he was at that age that he was going to start secondary school. Then it was like, Right now, let's go now. Mum, Dad, can I have some tickets, please? Three air tickets, please. Then let's go.

Carole
Yeah. Yeah, excellent. You've been out of the UK for 10 years? Yes. What were your first impressions of how much it had changed when you arrived back?

Roz
Well, Malawi is a very sleepy place. It's like, Ma'a Sli Mata, as they say, which basically means tomorrow is forever. If you don't have to do things today, you can do them tomorrow. Things like very little traffic on the roads, things like that. Then the first thing I noticed coming back to England was the speed that everything was going at because we'd come from Heathrow up into Nottinghamshire, so we were up the M1. Similar, isn't it? Look, it's traffic. It was incredibly fast. That was one of the biggest things that I'd noticed.

Carole
One of the biggest things strangely, I noticed was the amount of litter, because, of course, in Africa, people pick up the litter to use it, and here, it's such a mess.

Roz 
Yeah, well, you see that all over the roads even now when you're driving around, don't you?

Carole
It's weird stuff like that. The other thing that I personally found difficult was understanding English.

Roz
Oh, okay. That's interesting. 

Carole
I didn't get my ear in at all. But one of the hardest things was helping my daughter understand pop culture, for want of a better phrase, helping her integrate as much as possible with the way teenagers are in the UK, which was not easy, bearing in mind I'm nowhere near being a teenager, and wondered if you had any tips or were your kids just straight in there and able to cope?

Roz
Being boys and quite outgoing, but yes, they were. They were straight into just going and get into everything. It was a real thing of discovery for them because we'd lived out in the bush and yes, they'd gone to school and had school friends and all the rest of it and some afternoon activities. Yeah, coming back to England and finding all these different things to do. They were just all over it, absolutely all over it. It was a case of I really did have to go out and look for them. Where are you? You need to come in for your dinner. Where are you?

Carole
Oh no, that sounds nice.

Roz
Maybe that's the difference between boys and girls.

Carole
I think there is a huge difference between boys and girls. Somebody I was talking to yesterday, we were just discussing the international language of soccer. Just give a couple of boys a football and it doesn't matter what language they speak, they're immediately best friends.

Roz
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure.

Carole
Also, idioms and sayings because I'd consciously stopped using them because I talked to so many people from different countries. They don't necessarily understand the weird language that Britons use.

Roz
Now we've got a very strange language, really.

Carole
I've had to teach my daughter quite a few idioms, which I was not expecting to do. I think bringing her up overseas was brilliant. Your boys as well, having the insight and outsight, if you like, to a whole world so far away from the way that England works.

Roz
Absolutely. Because they've got a real opportunity... They went to an international private school, which I can remember the school fees being £500 a term. It's like, what a bargain.

Carole
Absolutely.

Roz
That would be great. Because, again, we lived in the bush. When we first went there, there wasn't a TV station in Malawi. There was, I think, two radio stations, one in English, one in Chichewa. They couldn't speak, whether they can now or not, I don't know. But they could at the time, they could speak fluent Chichewa as well. So they really integrated with the whole African lifestyle, rather than maybe the expat lifestyle whereby you're only mixing with your own crowd or the people that you know from school. My youngest, I remember coming back from town one day, and he was with his nanny, and they're both up a mango tree. And then when they came down, he had just this wash of mango juice where he'd just been eating and eating and eating mangoes. So that's the thing that they did when they were little and growing up, rather than what happens here is we're all in front of the TV or in front of the screens or on phones all the time and not going out so much.

Whereas these two, they were off out doing all sorts and not influenced by any media or constant marketing that you even get just from watching TV here with the adverts and everything. They never had any of that. I remember my eldest when it was a parents evening and I went in and spoke to one of the teachers and he said, Your son's got a really worldly view of everything. I said, You do know where we've been for the last 10 years, don't you? He says, Oh, no. I said, In the middle of the bush in Malawi, basically. I said, Oh, I see, that explains it. And I said, Yeah. Because he sees things so differently. He really does.

Carole
A greater world view is a real gift to have, isn't it? And that is one of the reasons that I say to as many people as possible, Yeah, move and live overseas with your children. And they get a view that you just cannot emulate in a classroom in the UK.

Roz
It's all those experiences. It's the warmth. Of course, it's the warmth. It's the mangoes and the guavas.

Carole
It's the African way of life. They'll remember the language. It does come back.

Roz
I'm sure if they actually went back, that they would pick it up. It would just come back to them so quickly.

Carole
Yeah, I think it lives in a little filing cabinet behind your head somewhere, and it suddenly reappears when you least expect it. You are one of the most innovative people that I have ever met. Thank you. We'll move on to what you're doing in a moment. I cannot wait. But you mentioned just now that you had a publication in Africa. So you set up your own business based on what you found was needed over there. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Because something that many expat partners can't do is work overseas due to visa issues. But some of us can set up our own businesses, and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. So can you tell me, please, about your Friday publication?

Roz
Yes, for sure. Firstly, I had a business residence permit whilst I was there that I got very soon after the break up with my former partner. I was free basically then to do whatever I wanted to do in terms of business. And I had a riding school for a little while because I'm a riding instructor and I absolutely love horses. So I did that for a little while. And then that all came to an end and I wanted to learn how to design websites. So my neighbour at the time had literally just launched Malawi's second Internet service provider. So the government set one up first and then my neighbour basically set up the next one. So of course, they've all got computers in their office and everything and I just said, you know what? I said, Would you have a spare computer? I could just come in and learn how to use it. I said, And if there's any phone calls or maybe you want the office tided up or speak to customers when they come in, I can do all of that. I said, I don't want paying for it. I said, I just want to learn this skill.

So it's like, Yeah, for sure. And of course, because we were out in the middle of nowhere and he was literally next door, he used to give us a lift into the office and back in the morning, so I didn't have to worry about transport and all the rest of it. So I learned how to design websites. And then one of the directors said to me, Have you ever thought about doing an email, like marketing or anything like that? And I said, Well, I've been reading about it actually, and I find it quite fascinating. So yes, I am. Now, because they were a newly set up internet service provider, of course, they had 500, say, subscribers. We would like a newsletter that goes out to them once a week. Would you be able to put something together? And I'm like, Oh, my God. Yeah, I've got 500 people here to talk to. Absolutely. I basically made a newsletter that was called Thank God It's Friday. And it was basically a what's on newsletter. So I would go around to the different places, like the sports club and the different bars that were open, the hotels and what events have you got going on?

I put them in this and then give us your email address. I'll subscribe you to it as well. And it basically turned into an online magazine that I then got... Being in a small ex pat community as well, I did all my business down at the watering hole at five o'clock because I'd go in there and the director of Carlsberg would be in there. The director for Total Fears would be in there. Oh, hi, Ross. What are you up to? And I said, Oh, I'm just doing this because yeah, we've seen it after a few publications. Can we advertise in it, please? And I'm like, Oh, money. Yes, of course you can. So they would advertise in it and I started getting some regular money in as well. So that helped with school fees and my rent and all the rest of it. And it just took off from there. And then I also got involved in actually organising events for Carlsberg. I did quite a lot with Carlsberg, actually, because their first brewery in Africa is in Malawi. So there's a nice, great big story there as well. So to be involved with them was just absolutely wonderful.

And then Malawi Telvision came out. So I started mixing with all the crew and everything there. Didn't really have anything to do with the actual production because it's a government thing. But that was really good fun. And then there were local radio stations that I used to go on and all really good fun. So I got known as Friday, basically. That was my name. It's like, there she is. There's Friday. And it was really good fun. And I was really sad to have left it because obviously it came to a time where the boys are more important than me trying to do this thing. So when I came back, one of the first things I did when I was in England is I just carry on with the Friday team. It's Friday. I'll just carry on with that. And then I had this big idea that I could do Friday in Nottingham, Friday in Leicester, Friday in London. And this is how my brain works. It's like, this can go really massive. But in Malawi, the email communications, even though I can remember that nightmare sometimes having connecting on the telephone lines. And then you find out that, oh, no, the copper lines have been stolen not by the exchange or something.

But it was a really important part of communication. Even though it was only at 20... I mean, it's really advanced now, but 20 years ago, it was really at the start of that a communications in Africa. But despite that, it was really popular. The open rate of my emails were 95% or something. It was ridiculous. I know it's a dream, isn't it? And yes, it was amazing. I did do it in print format as well whilst I was in Malawi. But then coming back to England, I thought, I'll do it again. But of course, you've got communications flying at you from so many different angles that just an email going out, it's not vital, it's not important. You can find information all over the place. You just have to go and search for it, don't you?

Carole
These days, yeah.

Roz
Well, even 20 years ago, people were searching for stuff rather than, Oh, yeah, I'll subscribe to her email because she's collating all the information. So it just fell down, really, when I came back here. So I thought, Right, okay, boom. We'll keep all the domain names and everything, but we'll just shelve it.

Carole
Yeah. Things changed so quickly. Before I moved to Japan, I actually had a magazine myself, and it was a hardcopy free magazine doing pretty much the same thing, advertisers. But I had to sell that business to move to Japan and never quite got it out of my system.

Roz
Yeah, there's something about it with all the deadlines and everything. It's exciting stuff to do.

Carole
Yes, I do love a dreadline, as I call them. Enlivening, I think the word might be. I started Expat Child as a a magazine at the time. It's evolved into something different. I think being able to evolve as life goes, especially with Expat Life, is absolutely vital. And you and I have been able to see how technology has changed over the last 20 years or so, or even 30 years, let's be honest, because I am that old.

Roz
Malawi has been really interesting and communications all over Africa is instead of saying going through the whole process like we've been through here in England, we're still relying on all the original telephone lines and everything that have been put in. Malawi went straight for, Right, we'll have our own satellite then. So we basically got this massive, great big satellite dish that was at the top of the building, put it up on the top of the building. And we were in the office and we're like, Oh, we can download a film in two seconds. This is incredible. Wow. Yeah. And then they built a microwave network off of it. So we'd ping, obviously, all the magic pixie dust stuff that flies around and makes the internet work, they could jump onto that instead of maybe going deep around the whole investment of fibre optic cables, which I believe they have done in South Africa actually, but you're never going to get fibre optic cables from, say, Johannesburg up to Blantyre. That's just not happening.

Carole
We did have fibre in. That's all very well, but when the electricity doesn't work, it's a bit pointless, isn't it?

Roz
Oh, gosh, yes. Yeah. 

Carole
The load shedding game.

Roz
Yeah, we know the load shedding game.

Carole
Quick tip, if anyone's thinking of setting up a business online in Africa, just be aware that you probably won't have electricity for 10 hours of the day.

Roz
And here's a generator you could buy.

Carole
And they are mad.

Roz
Generators, yeah.

Carole
Yeah, you got to get your own generator.

Roz
Yeah, definitely.

Carole
So you settled in pretty quickly. You're somebody that hits the ground running. And if you're not running, you're inventing new businesses.

Roz
I am. My brain just goes [buzzing noise] all the time. 

Carole
So you've done horse riding teacher, you've done mixing with all sorts of people at the local club and setting up your own online business. And then you're back to the UK where I believe you may not have been as employable as you were as some people may be.

Roz
No. 

Carole
I don't think either of us are employable.

Roz
Well, first of all, it was scary because I hadn't been in England for so long and I'd been used to the life of running my own business. So I looked at a few jobs that I thought I might like to do. I did a bit of agency work. I went and looked after someone's horses for a little while. But always, once an entrepreneur, always an entrepreneur, you can't keep away from it. It was always ticking in my head that I can make a lot of money if I make a business. Whereas if I go and work for somebody, I don't have qualifications, didn't go to university, I'm not going to earn the money that I would like to earn. So I need to find something to do. So I set up as a retail consultant because I'd had the African art shop in Glastonbury before. Had that down pretty much like 10 years whilst I was in Malawi as well. And I was watching daytime TV and I was watching Mary Portas walking around with a clipboard and telling people how to do this and do that. And I thought, well, I can do all of that.

So I'm going to be the next Mary Portis. So I set myself up as a retail consultant, but I would link the online stuff with their window displays and then their email marketing as well. So it was a whole package.

Carole
I see.

Roz
And looking at everything in the business, the stock, the profitability, everything. So I set this website up and I was adding lots and lots of content. And then I thought, right, what else can I write about? So obviously I'm a writer. So it's like, what else can I write about that is about retail that will be good on the website? And I just went, oh, mannequins. Of course, mannequins. But I'd never, ever thought about that. I knew nothing about them. I never thought about them before. Never had to use them in an African art setting. So I thought, Well, I'll just go and start researching. And then I just found this amazing world that was really fascinating. And I've always been eco minded as well. So it's like, Well, what happens when it gets to the end of the life? And I was shocked what I found, that they're getting crushed and they're going into landfill and all the rest of it. So I thought, This is fascinating stuff. Anyway, let me just pretend I'm a mannequin company now. So that's basically what I did is I put a web page together and it said all of these mannequins, this one's called Lucy, this one's called Jake, this one's called George, gave them all little profiles on the website and said they're all for hire and put my phone number on and just didn't think anything of it.

And then within 24 hours, because I know how to design websites, I know about SEO, my phone starts ringing with, Oh, you've got mannequins. I need six in London next week. Please, can I hire them? And I was like, I know I haven't got any mannequins. So I said, Oh, I'll just go and check with the warehouse. What's your number? I'll call you back. Go off, make myself a cup of tea and think, Right, what am I going to say? Phoned them back and said, Oh, I'm terribly sorry, but they're all out on hire that week. And then the guy phoned me again in the afternoon, like, "Are you sure you've not got any? I can't find any anywhere." And then that evening, someone else phoned, asking for mannequins to hire. And so I just thought, Where's all this coming from? So I type mannequin hire into Google, and I was at the bottom of the first page. So I thought, Well, this is easy. This is good. But what's wrong with all these people up above? So I went and I pretended to be a customer, and I phoned them all. I'd like five mannequins in London next week.

First of all, I was lucky if they even picked up the phone. Secondly, when they did pick up the phone, they were so far up themselves that they just didn't want to serve me. They didn't want to help me. So I just thought, Oh, okay. Maybe this is something that could go on. So I didn't have any money at all. So I said to Mum, "Mum, can you buy me a mannequin, please?" I said, I'm just mucking about with an idea. Can you buy me one? So she lent me 50 quid and I went and found one on eBay or something, I think. And I've never paid her back for that. By the way, I've never paid her back. Sorry. Yeah. Well, she finds it hilarious. It's part of the story anyway. But yeah, over the next few months then, as long as somebody was asking me for mannequins in, say, three weeks time, I had my benefit money. Right? So it's like, Right, everyone's eating baked beans on toast. I'm buying a whole load of mannequins. Okay, whatever. And the house started filling up with them. And then more orders coming in and out.

And then so I was just mucking about with it. But it was going on. There was business being done. And it came to a point where I had a phone call from the producers at ITV, and it was for Trinny and Susanna's What Not to Wear. And they wanted 10 of them. And the week before or a couple of weeks prior to that, I'd actually been to a bridal shop that was closing down in Nottingham and I got 20 of these really beautiful old mannequins. So I said, "Yeah, I've got them." And then I thought, You know what? This is cracking. This is absolutely brilliant. So what I did is I went and search for domain names because I thought, Maybe this is something, right? So let me start it as a company. We'll go limited, we'll trademark a name, we'll go VAT registered and just allow it to go big. And then I found the word Mannakin. So manna, food from heaven and kin, kindred spirit. Because I had a rough time with the whole coming back to England and everything and literally no money. And so I thought, it is like a gift from heaven.

This is brilliant because I can see that it can work. How big it's going to go, I have no idea. So I registered the name Mannakin, trademarked it limited company, back registered all in. And then over the next four years, it was at a stage where I had 10 people working for us. We were turning over half a million. I was able to buy the council house that I was in at the time. Just untold things going on. And then when my eldest son came and said, Oh, I quite fancy being a pilot. And I went, Oh God, how about the RAF? No? Okay, right. How much is it going to cost? But I was able to fund it. Not all of it, but I was able to fund it for him. That early part of him going and getting his private licence. And it's been such an absolute blessing, the whole thing. But it's all a journey, isn't it? It's like in Malawi, if I hadn't learned how to use a computer and design websites and email marketing and all that thing. If I hadn't have learned that, Mannakin might not have happened. I always say that if I just had a big collection of mannequins and ready to hire them, people wouldn't want them.

But it grew from nothing. And in actual fact, all I did was I just respond. In those early days, I responded to the demand for them. 

Carole
Absolutely perfect. And as you say, manna - gift, and it's enabled you to gift your eldest his dream as well. And the way that it's all happened is so beautifully synchronised. And it's a cliché, but right place, right time. But right place, right time doesn't work unless you're prepared to grab it.

Roz
Yeah.

Carole
Run with it, fly with it in your case, and basically blag your way to the most interesting, innovative business I have ever had pleasure of hearing about.

Roz
Well, yeah, because now Mannakin is 15 years old. It has its own property in Lincolnshire, which is a two acre site. There's around about a collection of maybe about 15,000 mannequins. We're a visitor location. We get people coming to visit. We get people coming to film as well as we do music videos there. That's really exciting. Then we've continued to prove that we are the people that come and hire your mannequins from us. The other great thing about it, Carol, as well is because it is an unusual business, I guess, in a way, that the amount of PR that I've had from it and the marketing... They do their own marketing. This is Stephanie, by the way, everybody who's watching. 

Carole
Yes, for those who are only listening can sit next to a beautiful mannequin called Stephanie, who sometimes misbehaves, but today she's been incredibly well behaved. So thank you, Stephanie.

Roz
Yeah, it's all right. You can have a piece of cake later, Stephanie.

Carole
Yeah, she needs a bit of feeding up, I think.

Roz
Yeah. I do call her my supervisor because I never intended to set out with a mannequin. I didn't have that idea of, Oh, I'm going to set up a mannequin business. It came to me. So part of my story is that I was abducted by mannequins. She's the supervisor, Stephanie, who sat next to me as the supervisor, keeps her eye on me and make sure that I'm doing my work properly. 

Carole
We all need one of those. My supervisor has disappeared, thankfully, without switching off the computer. Yeah, it all worked out perfectly. You had some bumps along the way, as everybody does in a journey, but without having the whole experience of living overseas, like you say, maybe Mannakin would never have happened. The whole sliding doors moment. 

Roz
Yeah. All of those experiences that we have, sometimes they feel like they are the worst things that could possibly happen to us, and they probably are at the time as well. But I think there is a reason for all of these things, not just to make you stronger, but for you to be able to cope with something and succeed in something later. So you don't always realise it at the time, of course, things can be tough, but they do lead You need to have that open mindset about it as well. I was very much, Oh, I'm not... Is this just going to be a little business that I'm going to start? I was like, No, we're going big. We're going massive. How far can I push it? And interestingly, what's happened now is that I've actually scaled it down to a level where this is perfect. This is absolutely where I want it to be. 

Carole
You have to live. The whole resilience is something I think that comes from expat life as well. And expat life in Malawi, you have to be resilient and raising children overseas as well. And it sounds like they've got the resilience from you. The benefits of moving and living overseas. 

Roz
Yeah. If anyone's got the opportunity to do it, go for it. It is such an amazing experience. I don't regret a minute of it.

Carole
No, exactly. The hiccups can be painful, but we've all got through everything and we just keep going. And as you say, it's a journey and all we can do is grab it and make the absolute most of it. 

Roz
Yeah.

Carole
So just to wind up here, what advice would you give to anyone repatriating with children? 

Roz
If you know... I mean, to me, it was a sudden decision. It was like, Okay, we're going now. And then it just all fell into place very quickly. But if you know the dates that you're coming back, then obviously the biggest thing is where are you going to live? Things like the schools and all the rest of it. For me, that was actually quite quick to get them into school and to get everyone. So I was really lucky. But obviously, do research and everything before you come back. The other thing is, is maybe the time of year. Because if you've been living in a hot country, either you're going to have to buy loads of thermals. Coming back to England and 15 layers and 20 duvets on your bed and everything because I remember a time coming back from Heathrow and it was in November. So obviously that's real leading up almost into the rainy season in Malawi where it's getting really hot. But when I turned up at Heathrow, I was able to just be in a T shirt and I was like, but it's so cold out there. Everyone's got coats on it, it's so cold.

But it took me three days to get cold, which was really strange. But I just came to the conclusion that it was my bones were so warm. That's what took the time. So yeah, that could be a really big shock. Things like for the boys, their school started at seven o'clock in the morning and then they'd be finished at 12 unless they had some afternoon stuff, but they'd always be home by two o'clock in the afternoon, at least by then, if not half past twelve. And then that's very, very, very different, obviously here.

Carole
And that's another reason why so many ex parents can't work when they're overseas, because apart from the whole visa game, the schools are a very different time. You cannot do a nine to five in South Africa, for example, because the school my daughter was at would send a message at 10 o'clock in the morning saying, Oh, we're finishing at midday today.

And there's no public bus. You can't go on the public bus. You have to do the school run. And Germany was similar hours. Wednesday, half day school.

Roz
Yeah.

Carole
And people don't think to look into that and expect that they can take the nine to five, which is why entrepreneurs, I think, do best at expert life. And isn't it fun?

Roz
Much more fun. Much more fun. Because you get to choose when you do your work, really.

Carole
And in Africa, when the electricity on, it does help.

Roz
Yes [laughing]

Carole
Thank you so much for agreeing to be with me today, Roz.

Roz
I've absolutely loved it. Really loved talking about it.

Carole
Just let people know how they can find you, and I'll make sure that they're also in the show notes for this.

Roz
Yeah, wonderful. So I have my Mannakin website, so that's Mannakin.com, M-A-N-N-A-K-I-N.com. And then I also have my personal website as well, because based on all of my experience getting the PR for mannequin... I'm internationally known as the mannequin lady, and I do help people with PR and even something coming back full circle to It's Friday. I'm just about to launch a PR agency and I'm also toying with the idea of bringing back It's Friday as well. Thank God it's Friday. So that's just something that's in the background. So my personal website is rozedwards.co.uk. 

Carole
I'll make sure to add all those into the show notes. Thank you so much. 

Roz
Thank you. Absolute pleasure.

Carole
I'd love to see you again soon.

Roz
Definitely.